17 Responses to “NECBL to CCBL: We’re “head-to-head””

1. Anonymous on January 9th, 2007 6:39 am

   Great point about the teams being far apart because that will continue to be an issue. The players in the CCBL don’t like driving from Chatham to Wareham…imagine them having to travel from Burlington, VT to Newport, RI?

   Saying that, the CCBL definately has some very legitimate competition. One of the primary reasons are the playing fields. The CCBL is unique in that it plays games at local high schools and other small ballbarks in very small towns. The NECBL plays games in many larger and often much nicer ballparks. They also play in much larger cities and towns that support the teams in ways that Chatham, Orleans, Bourne or Cotuit never could such as local cable TV, FM radio and greater, local advertising revenues. They do charge for tickets unlike the CCBL ($3.00) but they are definately catching up. I happened to be in Wareham last year when they scrimmaged the Lowell All-Americans from the NECBL. Their roster was made up of a lot of kids from national programs such as Miss State.

   In my opinion, the CCBL needs to do something to hold off other leagues. Perhaps expanding off Cape into Plymouth. How would the CCBL react if suddenly the NECBL expanded into Hyannis or Sandwich?

2. Dave B. on January 9th, 2007 8:36 am

   I will preface my comments by saying that following the Cape Cod League is a passion of mine and has been for many years. Having said that, if anyone thinks my remarks are prejudiced in favor of the CCBL, so be it. I will try to state this as objectively as possible however.
   The NECBL has made great strides as a collegiate summer league. I don’t think it is close in terms of quality or prestige to the CCBL however.
   I’m sure the people in the CCBL - from the G.M.’s to the coaches and other administrators -are aware of the presence of the NECBL and I think they respect the NECBL as a viable league. I do not think that they feel threatened by the NECBL. One example of this is the Cape League’s “invitation only” tryout which is held in early June. I attend this each year. I have seen representatives of the NECBL at this tryout. The G.M. of the Newport Gulls is a regular at this event. Last year, the CCBL even publicized the tryout by acknowledging that the tryout affords players the opportunity to be seen by people who represent teams in the NECBL as well as the CCBL and that this gives the players a chance to hook on with a NECBL team if they are not invited to sign with a CCBL team.
   Each year, some players who attend the CCBL tryout end up on NECBL rosters. More importantly, some of the players who sign “temp” contracts with Cape League teams end up with NECBL teams when they are released from their Cape League team.
   To be honest, when comparing the two leagues, I feel that the NECBL is a distant second to the CCBL. I feel quite certain that if you asked someone from another part of the country to compare the two leagues, they would tell you there is no comparison. I’m not saying the NECBL will not narrow the gap. I’m just saying they aen’t close yet.
   Personally, I hope the Cape League does not expand into Plymouth or New Bedford. I live off-Cape so it would be easier for me to get to games without having to cross the bridge, but I just don’t like the idea.
   First, as with any other sports league, the product could be further watered down. Yes, there are many quality college baseball players out there. You could stock another team or two. I just happen to feel that with ten teams you are at a certain level of quality but with any additional teams added to the recruiting mix, you are diluting the product somewhat.
   Secondly, when does the Cape League no longer feel like the Cape League. I realize Plymouth is just a few miles away from Cape Cod but do they stop there ? There is a certain “romanticism” to the Cape League which is part of its charm. That charm doesn’t pay the bills, but I think the league could lose something with off-Cape expansion.
   As for the fields, I often wonder what a player thinks when he arrives on the Cape from the University of Miami or the University of Texas. After playing in college stadiums around the country, they probably wonder where the “real” field is when they arrive on the Cape. The bottom line though is the playing surfaces are all pretty good (although I’ll never understand the stone-dust infield in Wareham !). The parks may be small but they aren’t going to draw 15,000 people as they would at a college stadium anyway.
   I don’t mean this as an insult to other locales, but I know if I was a 19 year old baseball player, given a choice, I would much rather spend my summer in Falmouth or Chatham than in Danbury, CT. or Keene, NH.

3. Anonymous on January 9th, 2007 11:50 am

   dave b… You make some really good points. There is definately a certain charm about playing and living on the Cape for the summer. That experience is unmatched when comparing it other leagues. However, I disagree with you about expansion. The way to counter the expansion and popularity of other leagues is to grow and improve the current product. The CCBL was in real trouble from a financial standpoint not too long ago and were able to climb out of that situation through hard work, improved marketing and agressive management. You can’t sit still now that times are better. In fact, there are signs that things are slipping some….

   1. The All-Star game got poor reviews from Baseball America and this was a headline story.

   2. The talent level was way down this past year.

   3. A couple of teams are struggling to find volunteers, host families, etc.

   4. There is a very strong reluctance within the organization to expand off-Cape.

   I don’t mean to paint a negative picture because all-in-all, the league is still the best in the country. My point is that if the CCBL wants to continue to claim that they are the best summer league in the country, they need to look around.

   The current interest level is about as strong as it ever will be considering the population of permanent residents and tourists. The only way to grow is to expand and while you could expand on the cape side of the bridge, you will be drawing largely from your existing fan base and reducing your avg game attendance by diluting the audience. Expanding into Plymouth or New Bedford or Mattapoisett or Carver or Middleboro will open up the league to an entirely new audience, revenue streams and markets. I understand what you are saying about losing the feel of the Cape but would it really matter?

   The fields…I actually happen to like all of the fields and I think as long as the playing surfaces are in prime condition, I would bet that the players like the look and feel of such an intimate setting. It is my understanding that the coaches and players in Wareham actually like that surface because the ball bounces and rolls much more consistantly compared to the traditional dirt/clay infields. I saw on the Wareham site that they installed a brand new infield and will be installing a brand new outfied and new perimeter fencing this spring.

   And as far as the NECBL… the competition is beyond just that league from a player recruiting standpoint. The Great Lakes League has some terrific fields and the fairly new Texas Summer League is coming on. For kids that don’t want to travel far, these new leagues are in close proximity to their colleges where they have access to their coach, their facilities and in some cases, their homes. Recruting is essential and if those kids start exploring these other leagues and discover some of the benefits, they might not come to the Cape. Keep in mind, we know the Cape and understand the weather and how great it is to be on the Cape during the summer. These kids for the most part have never been to the Cape and wouldn’t necessarily know what they are missing.

4. Andrew Wirtanen on January 10th, 2007 5:07 am

   Good points, everyone.

   Anonymous people, you can hit “Other” instead and type your name (unless of course, you prefer to be anonymous).

   My opinion on the NECBL still stands. I do welcome competition to the CCBL though as I think it keeps the CCBL and other leagues in check. Plus, maybe I will find myself in one of the NECBL towns and be able to watch a game (with a small donation?).

   Regarding the issue of expansion, I am somewhat indifferent but leaning toward NOT wanting the league to expand. If it is financially necessary, then I support expansion to Plymouth County. I could see a team playing in Plymouth, but I don’t know where I would stick the other team (certainly not New Bedford/Bristol County). Given the choice, I would probably have them play in Mashpee (and call them the “Commons”?) or Sandwich.

   Plus, this raises the question of whether Hyannis moves to the East Division or if another East team is created. There isn’t really any room east of Hyannis for another team… Anyway, it is an interesting topic. Maybe we will post about it in the future.

5. Greg Shaw on January 10th, 2007 7:39 am

   I think using the anonymous box is fine. Another option would be for those who wish to remain anonymous to sign their comments with a username so we can get to know you without really knowing who you are. Some of the most knowledgeable comments may come from those inside organizations, individuals who would prefer not to reveal themselves. So keep the comments coming.

   On the point of expansion, it might be interesting to invite someone from the CCBL Hall of Fame to write something for us about the history of teams in places like Sandwich, Barnstable and other locations. Baseball by the Beach is a great reference tool for the history of towns that once sponsored thriving teams.

6. Anonymous on January 10th, 2007 12:31 pm

   OK…call me “CapeMan” instead of anonymous. (I’ve made many other posts recently)

   First…everyone needs to stop being freaked out by the “bridges”. Do you realize that New Bedford is only 13 miles from Wareham? Plymouth center is further away from the “Cape” than downtown New Bedford.

   Second…if the league expands, it will have to do so by 2 teams to keep the schedule balanced. In my opinion, both of those new teams should be off-cape in Plymouth and New Bedford. You would then have 2 6 team divisons. Bourne, Plymouth, Wareham, New Bedford, Cotuit & Falmouth in the West and you then move Hyannis to the East. Each West team would visit each East team once per year so you actually be reducing travel for most teams and fans.

   Third..Expanding challenges the NECBL in a big way. It presumebly takes the next best 50 kids and spreads them out among the CCBL.

   Fourth…For those worried about losing that “Cape Cod Feel”, Plymouth has a lot to offer with the waterfront, many restaurants, a lot of history, great beaches, a big tourist base, many hotels and a very large population. Plymouth in many ways feels just like Cape Cod.

   New Bedford is rich with history, has ferries to the Vineyard, has an airport and is surrounded by some great affluent towns such as Mattapoisett, Pandanaram in Dartmouth and will also draw from Fairhaven, Achushnet, Westport and Freetown. The mayor is very aggressively pursuing a franchise and is a very influential and connected political figure. They drew over 3,000 for the Hyannis-Wareham game last year and the city is a great sports town. The adverstising and revenue streams in New Bedford would be unmatched and a CCBL team in this city might soon become the most succesful of any in the league. Those against a team in NB might SAY that they feel it is too far away but the reality of it is that they are being biased against this struggling city. The CCBL would draw a lot of praise for trying to help this city. How cool would it be to see “Cape Cod Baseball League” signs and merchandise in these two towns? Why not share the wonderful CCBL experience with others?

   Fifth…There really is no room to expand on the Cape side of the bridge. A Mashpee team would take away from Cotuit and Falmouth and a Sandwich team would take away from Mashpee and Bourne. An Eastham or P-Town team would take away from Chatham, Orleans and Brewster. If you like the current set-up, why mess that up. Expanding off-cape prevents that at the same time, increases the fan base.

   Sincerely,

   “CapeMan”

7. Dave B. on January 10th, 2007 6:05 pm

   Re Cape Man’s comments….. I thought you stated some very well thought out points in your second posting (the one showing a time of 11:50 am) They made me think a bit and I can certainly see some validity to them.
   Concerning your most recent posting to this topic though…..
   1) I know what you’re getting at, but I don’t think anyone is “freaked out” by the bridges.
   2) Based on your proposed realignment, if you play 12 games against the other division, would you play 30 against your own division ? I’m assuming you would play the other 5 teams in your division six times - three at home and three on the road for each of those five teams ? If you play a 42 game season, each team would play two fewer games than they do now. One of those two is a home date. I know that doesn’t seem like a big deal, but teams need every home date they have. Losing even just one home game gate, 50/50 raffle, etc. can mean a lot to some teams. That is one reason why every effort is made to reschedule every game that is postponed by weather. I believe 31 of the 32 rained out games from this past season were re-scheduled and a big reason for that is that the teams need the income from their 22 home games.
   3) It may be a shortsighted view on my part, but I don’t believe anyone in the CCBL feels a need to “challenge” the NECBL. I do not believe the NECBL is that much of a threat to the CCBL.
   4) Plymouth does have a lot to offer. Hyannis also has a lot to offer. Hyannis has more to offer than just about any other Cape Cod village. I believe that because there are so many other alternatives to people in Hyannis, it actually works against the Mets ability to draw respectable crowds.
   I feel even less positive about expansion into New Bedford. That has nothing to do with it being a struggling city but if you want to use that term, how will a struggling city support a team ? Yes, there are some affluent towns nearby but fans in at least a couple of those towns are just about as close to Wareham as they are to New Bedford. Bad stereotype coming here….. the people in those affluent towns are spending more time sailing the waters of Buzzards Bay than they are asking what time tonight’s game in New Bedford is. None of the ferries docking, or planes landing, will be bringing people in to watch baseball games, other than the players parents who already might fly in for a few days.
   The 3,000 people who attended the game in New Bedford last year can not be used to base potential attendance projections on. Yes, I realize that was part of the reason for bringing a game to New Bedford, but I can’t imagine anyone thinks they are going to come close to averaging 3,000 people per game. I don’t think you meant to insinuate that either. It was one game and it was very well advertised. Understandably, it was advertised more than any other single game. Announcements were made at every Wareham home game about the upcoming game in New Bedford. It was heavily advertised in New Bedford so they could make a one-game splash. It worked. I don’t think it is an accurate barometer of how a team would draw for a 22 game season.
   You said “the reality of it is that they are being biased against this struggling city.” That’s a pretty strong statement. Do you mean “struggling” in terms of economics (again, if they’re struggling, how can they support a team ?) or do you mean struggling as in a city with a high crime rate ? I don’t think anyone here should be branded as “biased” just because they feel expansion into New Bedford is not a good idea. I wouldn’t like the idea any more if Taunton or Middleboro were substituted for New Bedford.
   You made some good points in the previous posting. I may or may not agree with what you said, but I give credit for the statements being well thought out and well expressed. You lose me in this more recent posting though with statements about being freaked out by the bridges and being biased against a city.

8. Zlax45 on January 10th, 2007 10:08 pm

   Guys, I will be honest here since I write about College Baseball on my website. I believe that the Cape is the best league in the country and the NECBL is not really competing for the same talent that the Cape league is getting. You look at the NECBL and you see a bunch of bench warmers in college or starters for weak programs that couldn’t make it down the cape. I don’t mean that in a bad way but the NECBL is getting a bunch of second-tier players in the college game when compared to the Justin Smoak’s and Matt Wieters of the world.

9. Dave B. on January 11th, 2007 4:53 am

   Zlax45: You summed it up very well. You are absolutely correct. Even if the NECBL has a good crop of talent one year and the CCBL has a “down” year, the talent in the CCBL will still be way beyond that of the NECBL.
   The problem in last year’s CCBL all star game that was alluded to in an earlier post had more to do with a lack of available pitching on that particular day than anything else. Coaches got caught short in terms of the number of available pitchers and ended up having to use some positional players on the mound.
   Every year there are a number of Cape League “temp” players who end up on NECBL rosters. There is a very wide talent gap between the two leagues.
   Well said, zlax45.

10. Andrew Wirtanen on January 11th, 2007 5:51 am

    Going back to the issue of expansion, I think everyone made some pretty good points.

    For us Cape baseball fans, the bridge doesn’t bother us one bit. Since there is a lot of older people on the Cape, there is the stereotype that they don’t ever make it past the bridge. But, for us younger generations, it really doesn’t matter.

    I picked Plymouth over New Bedford because, for me, it has more of a Cape feel. Before the canals were built, the line of where Cape Cod starts was not well-defined. Plus, the commuter rail goes to Plymouth (of course we have no idea where a field would be).

    New Bedford really wants a team, but the league has made it known that the chance of expansion to New Bedford is slim to none. (I’d point to a capeccodbaseball.org news release but their archives do not work right now). So, there is no use arguing. I think New Bedford would be better suited for a independent league team though. But there is no denying that Plymouth and New Bedford are the strongest candidates for CCBL expansion. I also heard a rumor of a stadium being built in Mashpee.

11. Anonymous on January 11th, 2007 11:17 am

    Andrew…

    The league will have to expand by 2 to keep the schedules balanced so while Plymouth is a good option, you still need a second.

    By the way…your bring up a good point about where the Cape line started before the bridges. It actually used to include Plymouth to the North and all the way to Fairhaven to the West.

    Expansion doesn’t have a lot of support right now but the league has formed an expansion committee and are serious about the matter. I stand behind the fact that expanding on cape-side of the bridge doesn’t make sense because I think you’ll dilute other fan bases and you don’t help the league financially if that is the case. I truly believe you need to tap into new fan bases when and if expansion happens. Maybe New Bedford doesn’t get a team and perhaps Plymouth isn’t interested…after all, they have a minor league independent team coming to Plymouth. Then what are you left with? I think a team in Marion or Mattapoisset would be terrific but while they have a great “cape-like” feel and setting, neither town has the number of summer residents or tourists that even Wareham has.

    Carver, Middleboro? Fairhaven, Rochester? Sagamore which is part of Bourne or Onset which is part of Wareham? I don’t think Bourne or Wareham could support two teams. The road leads back to New Bedford when you consider that the CCBL will expand by two teams when and if they truly do decide to expand.

    “Capeman”

12. Andrew Wirtanen on January 11th, 2007 1:26 pm

    Yup, I know they would need to expand by two (see earlier comment: “I could see a team playing in Plymouth, but I don’t know where I would stick the other team”).

    I think we are pretty much in agreement (except the whole New Bedford thing). And I bet the expansion committee has raised all the issues we did here. I was talking with Steve Weissman (author of Beach Chairs…) about expansion and he says a major thing going against it is the increase in travel time. It is only an hour currently between Wareham and Orleans. New Bedford would make it an hour and a half. Plymouth is only a few miles further away than Wareham and would also be about an hour away. I see Plymouth County as the best candidate and New Bedford as the candidate who wants it the most.

13. NYCBL John on January 11th, 2007 1:27 pm

    I’m sure just about every summer league tries to compare itself with the Cape Cod League to their local media. The league brass will say, oh we’re right behind the Cape league or we’re catching up to them. It’s probably happened since the Cape league became well-known. A lot of places its mostly just rhetoric.

    I bet right now, someone’s comparing their summer league favorably to the Cape league.

    The Cape is still the Cape no matter how people try to spin it. Sure, the All-Star Game wasn’t great last year. But, no one counted on the fact that there were going to be a large number of rainouts and pitching would be so short. These things happen.

    I spent a summer on the Cape in 2004 and loved every minute of it. Other leagues can boast that they’re catching up, but nothing matches the experience of being in or working in the Cape League.

14. Anonymous on January 11th, 2007 1:34 pm

    Andrew..sorry that I missed that comment.

    I think travel overall would actually be cut down. A Plymouth team, for example, would only have to go to Orleans, Brewster, Chatham, Hyannis and Harwich once and visa versa. The rest of their road games would be to Bourne, Falmouth, Cotuit, Wareham and New Bedford…all very easy trips. Orleans, for example, would only go to New Bedford, Plymouth, Wareham, Bourne, Cotuit and Falmouth once. All other games are within a very easy drive.

    I realize this is a concern but one that is not really an issue when you factor in realignment.

    On a different note, how about an All-Star game between the CCBL and the NECBL or some other league. They used to do this all the time until they changed the format. This would help save pitching arms and would really result in the best-of-the-best players from the CCBL.

    “Capeman”

15. dude on January 15th, 2007 8:40 pm

    nice job. I think people would be more interested if you talked about the three top amateur summer leagues(ccbl,necbl,and alaska league. there have been a lot of major league players including mlb future stars like donald brown and bryan peterson overall Id give this a thumbs up

16. Sully on July 9th, 2007 10:26 pm

    I have read all of the post and liked some of what I read and didn’t like some of what I read. That is just me though. One thing I will tell you is that I know the game. I have been to Cape Cod games and I have been to NECBL games. Let me tell you guys the talent isn’t as bad as you would think in the NECBL, the league is getting guys drafted more and more now. The Cape will always be “the Cape” BUT there is a lot of guys in the Cape that shouldn’t be there as well though. I know for a fact we will use an example. Say this stud from the U. of Texas is a Junior deserves to be in the Cape and a coach contacts Texas and says I will like so and so to play on my team. The coach from Texas says I will only release him if you take “this redshirt freshman” or this freshman. These players may not even belong in the cape. What that does is takes a spot somewhere down the line where a kid maybe at a smaller D1 would deserve to be there, what would maybe be a “temp”… Another key point is “temps” sometimes light it up in the CAPE and still are cut only because they are at a smaller school and the Cape coach has to assist the bigger school only because the college coach will never release their players to that organization in the Cape again.

    Now for the NECBL, it is getting better by the years. I have watched games back when it started and you could tell it was new. But the talent over the years is increased 100 times and to be honest with you it isn’t that far behind the Cape. There is smaller D1 school kids that can play, there is d2, d3 kids that can play, but just wouldn’t get the time of day just because organizations in the Cape pretty much have obligations to the “prime time schools” hitting with a wood is a different game, but someone with a legit average in the NECBL is a legit baseball player just as one that has a legit avg. in the Cape.

    NECBL fields are a lot nicer than those in the Cape exception would have to be the horrific field in Danbury, Ct. Majority of the fields are huge unlike those in the Cape, so the power numbers are down. Also NECBL games gets very big crowds too and I’m not saying the Cape doesn’t. Both leagues are very good and the Cape is the better one followed by the NECBL. Please e-mail me with any thoughts or questions, because I know a lot of prospects in collegiate ball, a lot about the game and I would love to share with you what I know about schools, players, coaches, and any other information. Have a good one Sully
    My e-mail is northeastbaseballscout@yahoo.com

17. Greg on July 10th, 2007 7:52 am

    Hey, thanks, Sully. Very informative comment. I really want to get over to see an NECBL game or two. I also would love to get out to the North Woods League. I live in the West Coast Collegiate Baseball League region and will likely post on that at some point.

    Hope you’ll continue to read and comment here. We appreciate it.

    Greg

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